cross-posted from: https://reddthat.com/post/70827890
Few adult men are killed by adult women. Our fear is real
The world would be better if we had better empathy for each other. I don’t think the poster thinks that men’s problems don’t exist. However so many men seemed to have interpreted it that way. I think the poster is just asking for empathy. There’s no need to be defensive about it if you’re a guy. All they’re asking for is awareness of their problem. We can do better than just dismissing their concerns outright.
Reminds me of an IDLES lyric: “Men are scared women will laugh in their face, women are scared it’s their lives men will take.”
Men are scared women will laugh in their face
Counterpoint: https://archive.ph/s0bTd
An innocen man lost his career, his wife and children, and his home. That’s a little more than “a laugh to the face”.
And she only got caught because she went to the police. The vast majority of accusations are designed to never come even remotely close to anything properly investigative. They’re meant to impart the maximum amount of social and economic destruction with a minimum of accountability - and preferably none at all.
Cherry on top:
As for the good Samaritan, he says the incident has deterred him from helping a young woman ever again.
And a large number of men are learning from the misfortunes of other men, rather than experiencing such pain and destruction personally. This is why “chivalry” is dead. And good riddance.
No, the vast majority of accusations are not designed, they’re just the truth. Sounds like this dude was already sexist though, why would this only keep him from helping women of a vague-yet-predetermined age? Anyone could make such a claim and ruin someone’s life. If he said he refused to help people of the same skin color as her, would that justify being racist? This woman clearly has a diagnosable mental disorder, it doesn’t exactly point to a gender-wide conspiracy, and it certainly doesn’t belie the claim that women have more to fear from men than men do from women. Chivalry should die, it’s just window dressing for systemic gender inequality.
As soon as guns were invented this bullshit was over. Anyone can be killed by anyone. If you’re worried about it, get a fucking gun. Guns illegal? Better study the blade.
The overwhelming majority of men aren’t doing that shit.
Hey. Hey, try this.
“The overwhelming majority of white land owning men in 1860 were not slave owners, therefore we should minimize the reality of slavery as a problem the slaves had. Maybe if the slaves had smiled more at white land owners, everyone would have been happier.”
Oh. Hey, don’t quite work the same, right? Kinda like it’s a societal and cultural issue. Oh… Huh, maybe it’s worth a think first before you say things.
Edit: this is a comparison to show how not OK it is to wave away something terrible people do just because “a small group do it.” It’s made sarcastically. JFC, people, learn to read.
Only a white person would make a comparison this braindead
You really can’t tell this is sarcastic? The quotes?
Any amount of men doing that shit is unacceptable.
Same as mothers committing infanticide, parental alienation, paternity fraud, rape and many other crimes.
Acting like an entire gender is guilty of the crimes of a few is inherently wrong and it is called collective responsibility, and it can also be played both ways, which is a complete waste of time.
It just leads to fighting, throwing blame around and it does not help bring solutions to the people actually suffering.
“but what about…”
Cool, we aren’t talking about that right now.
If people pointing out shitty things that a plurality of men do upsets you, ask yourself why. Are you a part of that plurality? If no, why are you mad?
Because when problems affecting women are discussed, most people act like it is the end of the world, like men need to risk and even lose their lives to protect them, but whenever issues that affect men are discussed, we are met with dismissals such as yours.
If people pointing out shitty things that a plurality of women do upsets you enough to try to debase those concerns, attempt to throw shade and even attempt to paint the other person as someone who roofies women, then there is no sense in having a discussion.
It is the same regurgitated arguments that people who claim “kill all men” is not hate speech, and ridiculing anyone who takes issue with said problematic statement.
people pointing out shitty things that a plurality of women
The number of women doing the things you mentioned and the number of men doing the things mentioned in this post are not the same.
It is the same regurgitated arguments that people who claim “kill all men” is not hate speech, and ridiculing anyone who takes issue with said problematic statement.
I haven’t seen any of that here, and I sure as shit don’t see how my “date rape is bad” stance is the same thing as “kill all men”
To mostly quote you:
Any amount of [wo]men doing that shit is unacceptable.
And that’s exactly my original point. Whether we’re talking about a large number of perpetrators or a small number, the people responsible for those crimes are the perpetrators, not their entire gender.
Are you a part of that plurality? If no, why are you mad?
I’m not claiming your “date rape is bad” stance is equivalent to “kill all men.” I’m pointing out that the defense you’re using is the same: Make a sweeping statement about men, then when someone objects, insinuate that their objection itself is suspicious rather than engaging with the criticism.
And the difference in prevalence doesn’t really resolve that issue. We can acknowledge that certain crimes disproportionately involve one sex while still asking whether collective blame is appropriate.
More importantly, if the goal is actually to reduce these crimes and help victims, I’d rather see the discussion focus on things that can accomplish that: effective laws, enforcement, appropriate punishment, prevention, victim support, and making sure victims of all forms of these crimes have access to those things.
That’s what I was getting at originally. I’m not defending date rape, and I don’t think anyone here is. I’m questioning why assigning blame to a gender seems to be the first avenue rather than addressing the mechanisms that allow the crime to happen in the first place.
And your response just proves my previous point, having a discussion with you is entirely pointless, you respond like you were trained to escalate things and then play the victim, Are you sure you’re not AI?
Anyway, feel free to reply, or don’t. I am not engaging with you anymore.
Edit, typo
Counterpoint: https://archive.ph/s0bTd
And she only got caught because she went to the police. Most accusations are only meant to destroy careers, so never come close to anything even remotely investigative. HR washes their hands of the man, (usually) blackballs him in the industry, and never tries to find out anything more beyond the woman’s accusation.
Cherry on top:
As for the good Samaritan, he says the incident has deterred him from helping a young woman ever again.
Men are seeing incidents like this, and learning by example before painful experience hammers it home.
The article is 7 years old. That’s how far you have to go back to find an example
Anyone at all who gives this more that two seconds of thought knows these issues are not to be compared, but to be seen as part of one complex that should be solved as one, should we ever hope to resolve it.
Accentuating issues on one side while grossly belittling ones on the other isn’t gonna cut it. You won’t magically fix the culture of aggression and dominance as the only acceptable behavior, inability to complain and find healthy guidance, social hierarchies and pressures, exclusion and alienation of men from large parts of social life that can be vital to them, the indoctrination by “men are dangerous”, by reducing it to “oh women don’t smile at them, cry me a river”. Neither will the gross overgeneralizations, lumping half the planet’s population into some psycho category, help resolve the matter.
Men need to receive care, attention, to have a safe space for their emotions, to unlearn the unhealthy parts in a safe environment while keeping in touch with themselves and a healthy masculinity. They need healthy interactions with women to receive a balanced and healthy perspective, learn proper boundaries, dispel unhealthy views. We should be on the lookout for individuals who need help and professional attention, and who is most likely to pose danger if left this way. The very things that make some men dangerous grow at their most in isolation. We shouldn’t let it happen, if not for the sake of men, then for the sake of women.
Women can - and should - take part in that. Let’s start simple: it’s totally healthy to address safety concerns, and a lot need to be said about it, but let’s work on the second part, let’s not compare or reduce someone else’s feelings and struggles in a neverending tug of war. We can talk, and there are intertwined issues on both sides that we need to untangle together. Let’s get it done.
I’ll counter this with any “real housewives” tv drama bullshit.
Proves that women are all etcetc
My ex girlfriend tried to stab me in my sleep. But I guess I should feel lucky since it’s so statistically unlikely.
You’re confusing two things. On a personal level, you’re not lucky. The moment something happens, everything changes for the person it happened to. Same with rare illnesses or side effects of drugs or vaccinations.
What doesn’t change is that men go on first dates without taking precautions. I hope that helped
Ah yes, the very unbiased and fair comparison between murder and podcast incels. There are no real issues that men are facing…
I don’t understand why people can’t support women while supporting men too. I can. You can do too. It is not women vs men. It is tradition/sexism vs individual freedom/respect.
On the one hand, I agree. On the other hand, most men do not understand that to be a woman means constantly being in danger.
“But not all men are-” I know. Everyone knows. There’s good people of every gender, that’s not in question. The problem is that people keep saying “Not all men” in direct response to women expressing that they don’t feel safe. Same energy as telling a black person “All lives matter”.
There’s the men this meme is about, and there’s the men this meme is for, and the venn diagram is two separate circles. The assholes with the podcasts aren’t going to understand, because they’re the problem. They think that by being nice they’re entitled to sex, and then get vindictive when no sex. Most everyone else doesn’t understand because the thought of being such a douch doesn’t occur to them.
The problem is that people keep saying “Not all men” in direct response to women expressing that they don’t feel safe. Same energy as telling a black person “All lives matter”.
I don’t think this is entirely accurate. The equivalent of an “all lives matter” person is a “men have issues too” person, not a “not all men” person. The first two are from people taking issue with advocacy for one group (black people; women) because they see it as exclusionary of or harmful to their group (white people; men)*. In contrast, “not all men” people are responding to a percieved attack directed at them, not just to being excluded from targeted advocacy. Subtly but meaningfully different, imo.
* Technically non-black people and non-women, I suppose? But this is the general pattern I’ve recognized.
My analogy isn’t perfect, but I think it holds up well enough to make my point.
Woman: “I’d like to not be sexually harassed when I go out in public.”
Man: “I feel personally attacked by this statement.”
Black person: “I’d like to not be killed by a cop today.”
White person: “I feel personally attacked by this statement.”
I hate these kinds of posts too. All they do is promote division in these times we have to stick together against the billionaires
The worst part… it works. E.g. on me, and i know. It is difficult to see these kind of posts, which are clearly misandry, and then hear people deny the trend for misandry, especially online.
OBVIOUSLY there is a shit tonne of misogyny, especially online and that is a big problem. But we shouldn’t ignore the trend to misandry. It is not a competition and we fight against misogyny better if we fight sexism in general, I believe.
But the posts make me feel like a shocking amount of people are not against sexism but just misogyny. How am I supposed to feel like those are not my enemy when I am opposed to sexism?
Then I spend time with the people that I love and I am good again but… it is fucking poison.
This post still isn’t at bad as a roofie.
We can start working on posts like this once we’ve solved the roofie problem.
Why is roofying bad? She won’t remember it, and that’s good enough for women when they circumcise their infant boys.