I heard that back in the days, people used to just go when their work was done on the farms and there was no concept of 9-5 (these days seem 24 hours work). There used to be a lot of holidays. Is that true? If it is, then given the abundance in technology, why our work hours increased and why do we have such weird lives that we live to work?
Those are true, it’s the shift to capitalism. Before excess wealth could be gained through colonization. Once that was done it became about squeezing out as much as you can from your workers. However the good businessman would have squeezed everything they could out of their workers while colonizing. (Like the US in the Middle East since WW2 or more recently Venezuela)
Because the people who own everything aren’t being slaughtered in the streets.
After I hit 40 hours I’m gone. I acknowledge there is a certain amount of privlege required to do that. It took me 20 years to get to that point but Im proud of it and I wanted to brag.
Back then all you had was the clothes on your back an half a sack of grain at the store. There’s more free time if you don’t produce anything.
And an onion tied to your belt, which was the fashion at the time
A lot of it is cultural. Capitalism continues to exploit people not just because of the machinations of a few people at the top, but also because there are many people who have so deeply internalised the logic of capitalism that they are reinforce and perpetuate their own oppression.
A phrase that I’ve found really useful in understanding this is “cultural hegemony”. This theory was originally developed in the early 1900s by the Marxist philosopher, Antonio Gramsci. It’s a pretty dense bit of political theory that I don’t feel like I understand well enough to explain well, but I’ll attempt to give the gist of it
The key thing about cultural hegemony is that it makes the dominant political ideology seem like it’s natural and inevitable. We see this when people recognise the awfulness of their working or living conditions, but then shrug it off by saying “that’s just life”. They can’t imagine any alternative. I see it a lot in my daily life when people see the crafts I make and say “wow, that’s so good, you should sell those” — people are conditioned to only see value in terms of monetary value.
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Because living is more expensive now than before. In medieval times, you had a 30m² wooden house on your farm that you probably built yourself, no heater, no car, no brand clothes, no washing machine, no electricity at all, no water pipes, etc.
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Because when you work on a farm for yourself, you keep 100% of your work. When you work for a company, it keeps most of your work for itself and gives you some compensation in return that depends on a combination of “how much do you need for living” and “how easily could you find another job”.
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What other choice is there?
Compared to pre-WW2 era, the work week and day has decreased from 12 hours/day, 6 days per week, thanks to the more militant labor movement.
In more recent decades, productivity has increased significantly, so we should be able to produce the same amount as before, with less labor: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
But I’ll let you guess who is cashing in the extra profit from your work. Tip: it’s not you.
The concept of 9-5, 5 days a week is exclusively from Unions and organized labour.
As are the ideas of workers rights, any kind of safety regulation, minimum wages, paid days off(holidays and vacation).
These ideas are going away because we forgot that Unions are critical to the idea of a middle class.
Even the one who are not identified as labors like IT guys, xyz engineers, they have a lot of pressure and the shitty corporate culture.
We need to fix this definition because it is wrong. Labor is anyone who gets paid to work. As opposed to Capital who makes money off of owning stuff.
IT guys, engineers, doctors are labor unless they literally own the company.
unless they literally own the company
And even then, most of them are still labor. It’s shocking how many companies outsource to people who ‘own their own company’ to avoid labor laws. For example, Uber.
IT is a fairly new concept and companies have rigorously resisted the creation of either a union of IT workers or a society of one like doctors and engineers enjoy
Why would companies have a say in this? Lol
Companies never like unions, it’s the workers who create them to protect ourselves
Because they intimidate people trying to organize, either subtly or with overt violence.
They will also go after fundraising to block it, they will shut down locations where it is getting traction, they will outsource until the issue is dead, they will encourage the 1-2 year employment cycle silicon valley employs to prevent the kind of bonds that lend themselves to organizing.
Edit: they will also just bribe the leaders and organizers. Everyone has a price.
Capitalism
the biggest evil
Are there any other systems, or point in history, where a country’s population could live without working?
I don’t know whether to assume this question is in good faith or not. Can you restate what you think the OP is asking? It’s not about whether there was ever a time when no work was needed.
I’m not interested in
wasting my time against a sealiondebating capitalism.I’m not coming from a defence of capitalism. I’m just pointing out that people have had to work in some capacity to live all throughout history. People would still need to work to live under any system.
I’m just pointing out that people have had to work in some capacity to live all throughout history. People would still need to work to live under any system.
Nobody said otherwise.
… the title in OP asked, “why do we live to work, rather than work to live?”
The response was “capitalism.”
So: precisely under (not-capitalism)… we could “work to live,” rather than “live to work.”
That’s true, but the point is in the current system we’re working a lot harder than necessary in order to benefit a few people at the top
Working in what context? There are native peoples all over the globe that work to live and not to enrich a single sociopath.
Being self employed helps. My workday doesn’t end at set time - it ends when I’m done. Sometimes that’s 10am, sometimes 7pm. Then if I feel like I’ve worked too much and could use a vacation I just don’t schedule any work for the rest of the week/next few weeks.
Now don’t get me wrong, I do work a lot but it doesn’t feel like work really because I have total control of everything I do and I’m doing exactly what I want to be doing. What also helps is that I manipulate the physical world - not bits on a computer. When I’m done I can see what I’ve built and on top of all that I get genuine gratitude for it. Lots of it actually - people are awesome.
Aren’t you slave to your customers instead of your boss though ? Can you really afford to just close the door and go sunny side of your want to?
I do small- to medium-sized renovations jobs. Ofcourse I can’t just leave while a project is still ongoing but next time the phone rings, there’s nothing stopping me from saying the next available time is a month from now. Also, I have over a hundred individual customers, so I can afford losing some. If working for one starts feeling like being a slave, I can just not take future jobs from them.
That sounds like a nice situation. Broad market, customers by the bucket. That’s quite nice! I admire your line of work. I could never to it following my personal attempts to renovate my own home. You must have acquired a whole lotta skills to get where you are .
I’m mostly self-taught. These things aren’t that hard if you just know what you’re doing, and internet is full of instructions. Looking at my own home, nobody would believe I do this for living as it’s where my every first attempt at something is located and much of it is what I’d now consider sub-standard quality.
Well yeah but that’s the thing; knowing what you should be doing riiiiiigh before the concrete dries on you last mistake xD
And getting « the hand » for everything. Like applying plaster; from my first wall to my last it tell quite the story. And that’s if there’s no shit luck like « ho what’s this sus beam embedded in the wall doing and how do si deal with it no that I have a very large opening to do for this news door frame ».
No really fuck all that anxiety. Even with the all Internet cheering ;-)
Yes, in a way, but on the other hand, time invested benefits them, not their boss. They own their means of production.
Yeah true that. Well possibly at least. They do own their skills at least. The rest is possibly rentals :-/
The rest is possibly rentals :-/
Nope. Even the truck’s paid off.
Farms had a lot more work than just 9-5. Labor unions fought very hard, and many paid with their lives, to get work hours restricted to 9-5.
Yeah, but the trade off was that you were bound to the land and social hierarchy was much more rigidly enforced. Your pay was mostly in food and accommodations unless you were in a trade, nobility, or the clergy.
Why do people work more? Because in an industrial setting, the methods of compensation and employer responsibilities are vastly different. Employers are incentivized to treat labor as any other good and will try to lower that cost where possible. In contrast, if you’re a form of bondage, your employer is more likely to treat you like capital.
what is the bondage example?
Various forms of serfdom.
Slavery, wage slavery, tying private, ever-less-and-worse healthcare to private middlemen like employers, insurance companies, PBMs, petrolroducts, SaaS, no ownership, overpriced, shoddy housing, car culture, both overpriced, both dependent on private middlemen insurance companies, extractive exploitation of global South and Asia, that’s also brutal, endless war, abolishing slavery in name but not in practice, 🐂 💩 jobs, inability to wfh when practical, degrading and privatising education, AI to take over creativity and fun rather than back-breaking labor and mind-numbing paper-shuffling,…
Companies need to make line go up. You could increase productivity by using more tech (computers, tools, etc), but you can also do it by working longer. So the people in charge said “why not both?!” And here we are.
I feel like some of it also is “work until you’re done” still. Hourly jobs pay per hour. But salary jobs typically pay you for work accomplishments, not time. Unfortunately I feel like a lot of tech improvements and processes have oversold their productivity improvements… example: AI will make you go code 10x as fast! So managers hear that (typically upper management, not middle/lower management who actually see it) and thus expect people to instantly do 10x the work. So you now have to bust your ass off working longer hours to meet that expectation. Good middle management will push back and reset expectations, but often the damage is done when they can half their work force with the assumption that they’re going to be so much more productive now that this new magical tool is in place.
The corporate culture is also quite insane and dehumanizing. This motivates me to be poor than to earn these fellows.
A group of about 30 middle managers pushed back on policies and processes that were killing the business, hurting employee moral and eroding customer confidence. They were told “no and that they were the problem and needed to do better”. Next meeting was, hey look at this new AI chatbot that will make everything much faster, like AI is going to fix everything.
I feel like looking at work at merely profit maximization is missing a big part of the picture.
There’s a big part of it that’s social positioning within an organization. I’ve worked more than a few jobs that could have been part time or been eliminated entirely, thereby saving the company money, but there is social value of being a manager that employs +1 people, so those jobs stayed.
There is a massive amount of weirdness going on at companies that is entirely unrelated to the balance sheet and wouldn’t be out of a place in a Byzantine Court.
Man, I get where you’re coming from, it all seems endless and stupid.
I was just thinking about this the other day in fact, but then imagined what life was like as a hunter gatherer. The search never stops for food, there is rarely an abundance, and nothing to keep that abundance from rotting away when you have it.
Every creation we’ve ever made is to simplify our lives and/or to protect them. Building those things increase abundance and leisure time for awhile, but then the birth rate goes up and we need to build more. Building better communication (to simplify our lives) meant that more people from farther away need stuff, so we need to increase production, so more workers are required. It’s a feedback loop.
Some world events pause or reverse this loop for awhile, but it never stops. If you want these things that help around the house so you don’t have to do them, that costs money, so you work.
I’ve seen stories of people who just move out to the woods for decades, but though they are ‘independent’ from the man, they’re still struggling day to day and often end up stealing stuff that others bought so they can get by, or relying on common taxpayer services when things go awry.
I think it’s simply a part of the universe. I learned once that life isn’t the opposite of entropy, it’s a small opposing force that itself decays. Something something rage against the dying of the light. Anyway, /rantoff
Awesome insight but I think the way that I have heard people being demanding in corporates in the name of “work ethics”, the recessions, the unofficial denial in hiring new people in some companies, the toxic behavior done by managers and those on upper levels to their juniors, is not the part of the universe. It is something artificially imposed to suck the marrow out of our lives. People who are supposed to be retired are still working in some places. I think the work conditions should be better. Or if they say that AI can do our jobs, then let AI do our jobs and let us chill. (Pretty naive take I think)
Oh I definitely agree that the ethics involved are problematic, no question. And I also agree with the premise that we need strong unions for our own protection against that predatory behavior!
But working for the man is, in fact, optional. You can start your own business, be a gig worker, or just be an under-the table helping hand for cash. Having done those things myself, though, has taught me they are often feast or famine arrangements… so in the end I too am working for the man, simply because it’s steady pay.
Edit to add that AI is obviously an unknown factor in this equation. It’s good at its niche tasks but terrible at others, and if you want one that actually has all the capabilities of a regular worker, it’s going to be expensive. Several companies are just finding out after they fucked around. I wouldn’t count us out yet.
what is under-the table helping hand? Where I live though, we do not have individualistic values so families and society will consider it a shame if you are not working a high paying corporate job (mostly engineers), freelancer (either trading or coding or graphic designing or video editing), government job. Business is very rare and mostly it is generational. I personally think I will take a mediocre job after I graduate and once I become free (when my parents will die and my sis will be married or I don’t know if she will get financial independent), I will be a poor or maybe will try to do “that thing” with my life.
It’s doing things like handywork around other people’s houses, babysitting, errand-running, walking dogs, driving people to appointments, all paid in cash at the time of service. It’s hard to make that work steady enough to live on, but it can be done!
The funny part is how romantic it seems…all the free time you’ll have, right? Then when you start you realize that every other breathing moment is you trying to find more of that work to do because you need more money.
And sure, culture is a thing that is just as crushing as your boss. We all answer to someone, eventually.
I was corrected on that. Hunter-gatherers apparently had more leisure time.
There is a difference between doing what is necessary to live and performing nonsense jobs and constant microtasks. We don’t have employment, we have an unnecessary and forced means of constant torture and forced compliance with ridiculous norms. I hate every job I’ve ever had. It’s not because I’m lazy, it’s because it is forced, invisible prison bullshit and I want to be free.